High definition.
I’m not ashamed to admit that until last year, I wasn’t a fan of HD. It was absurdly expensive to get into and there wasn’t much reason to make the HD jump. I’m glad I eventually did but I’m saddened by the fact that HD content is so scarce, unless you want to fork over a couple grand to really “get the experience”. No thanks.
Barring all of that, I’m happy with my HD experience. It’s hard to look at SD the same. I don’t have cable, I have an upconverting DVD player (if Blu-ray ever drops to $150 players, I’ll hop on board), and OTA signals are much cleaner than everything but perfectly encoded HD DVD/Blu-ray movies. I champion HDTV as a great thing. But can too much of a good thing really be all that bad? Yes.
I was at Circuit City the other day picking up a print cartridge when I decided to look at some of the newer TVs. I’m interested in getting a 46″+ LCD/Plasma later this year to replace my 32″ LCD and I wanted to see what the current selection was. They had Pirates of the Caribbean 3 on Blu-ray playing on one of Samsung’s 120hz LCDs. I decided to sit down and check it out.
This is where too much of a good thing comes into play. I can’t tell if it was that TV, the player itself, or the movie, but, though it looked like we were there (the clarity reminded me of Rudy Maxxa’s show on PBS in terms of “realness”)… you could also tell it was a movie… that the people weren’t really dirty, that their props were all fake, and that the backdrops looked put together. The immersive experience from the theatre could no longer be brought home. It was ruined for me. HD completely ruined the movie.
There’s no way I can accurately describe what I saw. I wish there were other movies I could’ve seen with this same technology (120hz+1080P), but there was nothing else playing on the floor, besides a Transformers DVD. I was disappointed, not because of the HD experience, but because of the faults, technical limitations, and falsities revealed by it. The special effects looked fake, the costumes looked fake, the swords and other props looked fake, and none of the actors looked like they actually belonged in the roles… even though none of this stood out when I watched the DVD at home on my upconverting DVD player. If this is the future, then HD Will ruin movies for me… at least some of them.
I’m being too hard, I know. There are movies where none of these limitations will matter… dramas, murder movies, perhaps more. But what other movies will the clarity of HD and the crisp smoothness of 120hz ruin? I can only imagine. I’m not against either of these but I have to wonder how Hollywood and other film makers will react to making films in the face of these things. One can only wonder… I know I am.
I’m fairly certain that your bad experience was caused by problems with the LCD, not the HD part of things.
LCD is a technology that uses backlighting. The picture is basically made up of a bunch of little squares that change their opacity and color; and behind it all is a great big white lamp that shines through the squares, giving you the picture.
One of the limitations of the technology is that everything looks a lot brighter than it actually is, especially the blacks. Even on expensive LCD screens, the blackest of the blacks is usually just dark gray.
Another factor is the sheer size of the thing. 46 inches is just too big, even for 1080p. Things will look blocky.
There might also be upconversion involved. If the film itself had been 720p (also an HD standard) and it was playing on a 1080p LCD (and LCDs are fixed-resolution devices — they can’t change the number of little squares they have in each row and column) then it’s possible that either the player or the TV were doing some horrible upconversion mojo, which more often than not looks like shit.
Oh and the LCD’s colors might just have been mistuned for some reason. Happens quite often.
There’s a whole range of possibilities for why it looked so bad, but I’m completely sure it wasn’t a problem with the film itself.
Hollywood films are nowadays mastered at 4K or some even higher resolution — that’s four times greater than 1080p. They’re printed onto film for projection at the same resolution and in some places projected using 4K digital projectors. So, basically, if it doesn’t look fake at the movies, where the picture is at least four times clearer than your best HDTV, then it’s not gonna look fake on HD unless there’s something very wrong with the TV you’re watching it on.
120 Hz shouldn’t have done anything to the viewing experience other than cut down on chop from 24 fps sources. At 60 Hz, every third frame has to be displayed longer than the previous two (a 2, 2, 3 pattern). At 120 Hz, each frame gets equal weight (5, 5, 5). Unless the player is doing some voodoo interpolation I’m unaware of, you should be seeing the picture as intended, no more, no less.
You’re right in that higher resolutions can ruin the viewing experience for pre-HD era content. DVD itself has done this to some degree with older content. Lack of resolution is often used to hide the seams, if you will, and when you increase the resolution the seams come apart.
Shouldn’t have been a problem with Transformers though. I saw Pirates 3 projected digitally and other than the inherent fakeness of the effect (visible whether projected digitally or from film) it was gorgeous.
Actually you are 100 percent correct… I am an HD junkie and have both hd-dvds and blu-rays for my LCD tv bought in January 06 before 120 hz etc… were the norm. I was in a future shop and saw pirates running on an xbr4 120 hz tv. It was completely jarring. It felt like i was watching a soap opera or i was behind the scenes at the movie. It felt as if it was an extra showing the movie before post-production rendering and wrap-up.
I have never experienced this before. Transformers and Pirates on my systems and tv at home look amazing but still make me feel like i was watching a movie. This setup at future shop instead made it feel like i was watching it in real life. I cant explain it better but it looked like a live soap opera as opposed to a film.
I know what you mean. I describe the experience of watching a movie in HD 120hz, as opposed to 60hz, like that of watching a home movie. The motion is smooth, almost too smooth. And you become distinctly aware of the cameras movements in relation to the the scene being shot. Comparing it to watching a soap opera is also a good analogy. It’s just strange. Many of my friends who do not have HD TVs and come over to watch something on my HD 120hz make similar comments.
Harmin, that is the best way to describe it… it felt like watching a soap opera, not a film.
If no one has seen this, they need to. I’m not a newbie to HD. I know what great looking HD looks like (1080p/fantastic contrast/etc). Watching Pirates at Circuit City wasn’t about the colors or anything (though they couldn’t calibrate that TV anyway and the colors were all wrong as well), it was about the way that 120hz + 1080p made the movie look like a Soap Opera, like you were on the set watching them film, except you weren’t standing off to the side… you were looking through a camera without a lens.
This is a very jarring experience and, honestly, it ruins the movie. Like I said, though, I’d love to see this technology with other movies to see if it was perhaps the combination of Blu-ray, 1080p, and 120hz or one of them alone.
I totally know exactly what you are describing! it is sooooo annoying my new Samsung 46inch 120hz 1080p tv makes movies look fake and cheesy. just like i am on set watching them film it, my new expensive tv makes movies appear totally fake and unbelievable.
I too know what you are talking about. I watched 310 to Yuma last night on a new Samsung 6000 LED. I had watched the movie before on a regular TV. The HD ruined it. I was quite shocked at how different the whole movie felt. Like you said, I felt like I was on the set watching it being filmed. That transformation we all expect when watching FILM was gone. Watching a soap opera was a perfect example.
ur absolutely right. noticed the same thing watching transformers at circuit city. it fel like i was watching a play. it doesnt have that movie feel to it. at some points it felt like i was watching a porno or something. 720p doesnt have that effect
I have to agree, I was watching Star Wars III – same thing; it just looked fake. For a minute I had to figure out if I was watching the real movie or some ‘Making of..’ I could too easily tell what were props and what weren’t. The computer special effects just looked cheap to me – never happened on a lower resolution.
In my option, it just raises the bar for film makers. I believe we are still in a pre-high-def era with film makers. Things will just get better.
I wanted to comment on Elver’s 4k projection in movie theaters. Stop me if I’m wrong, but say they are projecting 4k, wouldn’t a screen that large, well past 4X the size of my television, have less of a resolution than my 1080p?
I think the difference you are seeing is the 120Hz, more specifically with interpolation of missing frames (which most all of these 120Hz HDTV’s do.)
I think there are 2 factors involved-
1. Since you are watching moving pictures, frame rate can be just as significant as resolution. At 120Hz, everything takes on an almost ‘too real’ look. I kind of like it, although it’s definitely different than the 24 fps look of film.
2. Because the HDTV is interpolating frames, it is basically guessing to fill in the gaps since it is outputting 120 fps from a 24 fps source. This also makes the picture look different, as current HDTV’s seem to do this okay, but not great. Sometimes details get obscured, other times I have seen ghost trails on screen.
120Hz by itself with no interpolation can really only be a good thing because 2:3 pulldown is no longer required, the HDTV can simply repeat frames and essentially generate 24 fps.
But the extra interpolation can both add and detract from the picture quality, depending on your personal preferences. I would imagine you can turn the interpolation off (each company has its own name for the effect), but am not sure.
I’m guessing that in the next 3-4 years, Sony and everyone else will improve this post processing so the artifacts are kept to a minimum. Then its up to you to decide whether you want the original 24 fps look, or the more realistic 120 fps look.
you know you can turn off the 120hz feature. the world isn’t ending. it’s ok 😉
I was also at Circuit City and they were playing Transformers. It looked like a soap opera and I thought it was a skit from Saturday Night Live.
I’ve seen the 120Hz thing too. There is obviously add some kind of filtering or extra motion-blur or something they add to movies to make them change in appearance from home-video to movie-like. It’s got nothing to do with 720p or 1080p or even 480i. You can see the same effect with behind-the-scenes video, or just watch soaps vs movies. There’s some kind of post-processing effect they add which obviously isn’t used (or can’t be) on the 120Hz videos.
I don’t think the motion blur or any other visible artifact is purposely added. Anything that you can notice like that is the result of imperfect interpolation of so many extra frames to generate 120 fps from 24 fps.
I think the TV’s will get better at this in succeeding models, but it will never be perfect. As others have pointed out, you can turn the effect off anyway. I personally don’t mind it, but it will probably be more appropriate for certain types of content than others.
I’m so glad to have stumbled upon this… I witnessed the very same thing at Circuit City with Pirates 3. They were running two samsungs, both of which looked totally play-like. It was as if they totally lost the film quality. It reminded me of old Dr. Who shows or soap opera looking. The sales person informed me that it was the result of analog/component cables running off a Blueray vrs. hdmi cables.
When I saw the same thing at Bestbuy, I asked the kid there about it… He said it had nothing to do with cables and that it was the product of 120hz technology. The faster frame rate, better back lighting and so on… So which is it, hdmi cables or the 120hz that causes this effect or neither?
thanks everybody
thats just about the dumbest complain i’ve heard about hi def
Its because of 120hz refresh. It creates smoother movement and when combined with such a high resolution, this can cause the things to stand out hugely, such as rubber swordplay,(cause of the smoother frames and high res, you might see bends that you otherwise would never have seen) special effects and so on. I know very much technically about HD and work with it constantly. Someone here said it right. We are still kind of in a pre HD Era. Once it becomes more common place in homes, hollywoood will start to put more work in helping things look more realistic in terms of HD view. Right now special effects are dont amazingly, but not to the detail required for HD/120hz refresh viewing. When you combine a 1920×1080 resolution with 120hz refresh. This is exactly what you get, clarity, but it has its disadvantages right now, as you guys have seen. Things will improve, sometimes technology gets ahead of itself and the world has to catch up. This is an example of that. Also, keep this hugely in mind. If you have a technical question in Best Buy or any other retail place, 90% of time you will either get a falsified, confusing, of half right answer. NEVER ask a clerk in any electronics store about something technical, they will give you an answer that is either completely wrong, or misleading. If you have questions need answering, use wikipedia or research around the net for facts.
also to add, so others are not confused, refresh rate (120hz tvs and so on) is not the same thing as frame rate, they are 2 different things. Movies are filmed in 24-32 fps and nothing, can change that, ever, besides the studio itself.
refresh rate: the number of times in a second that display hardware draws the data it is being given.
it works by including the repeated drawing of identical frames
frame rate: the measurement of the frequency (rate) at which an imaging device produces unique consecutive images called frames.
it works by measuring how a video source can feed an entire frame of new data to a display.
Alex…
1080p is 1920×1080 where as 4k is 4096×2160. That’s 4 times the area.
Glad other people are saying this!
While at Best Buy a month ago, I saw that Enchanted was playing on a delicious-looking 46″ LCD TV. Moving into prime viewing position, my face grew more and more into an image of disgust. The once enjoyable “film” looked like I was shooting it through a handycam. As a person who has spent years trying to get his own productions to look at least somewhat like film, I was appalled at the overwhelming “video” look. I asked the clerk and he boasted about the great new 120Hz technology – the future of HDTVs.
I think I like the past just fine, and get one of the 60Hz sets before they’re gone.
> NEVER ask a clerk in any electronics store about something technical, they will give you an answer that is either completely wrong, or misleading.
Heh… I was in a store the other week where a couple was shopping for DVDs to back up data from their hard drive. They didn’t know what the differences between DVD+R, -R, +RW, and -RW were, so they decided to ask an associate. She admitted that she didn’t know for certain either, but she thought one format was only for music, while + and – specified whether they could be re-written. She called up another associate, who didn’t seem to know either. I decided to step in and help them out, as I couldn’t stand to let them buy the wrong format and wonder why it didn’t work as they expected. : )
I suppose electronics associates can’t be expected to know everything about the products they sell though. New technologies are introduced all the time, and keeping track of every aspect of them would be extremely difficult. Of course, some who work on commission might provide false information just to make a sale, but I expect most just don’t know the answer. Doing your own research before buying a product is probably the best option.
I am so glad Im not the only one that thought exactly the same. I was watching (all these movies were at Circuit City) Pirates of The Caribbean 3 on a Sony Brevia, 1080p and my first thought was “this looks like one of those lame PBS shows/movies.” I thought I was crazy, but a week later my friend says he was watching Transformers 1080p and it looked horribly too fake. It was like its soo real, it looks baaaaad. Then I gave it another shot and watched Happy Feet….that was even worse! If thats what 1080p is, I dont like it. Although Im more into documentary filming, but movies will be ruined for me. I need to find a documentary filmed in 1080p, because thats what Im working on and if it looks like what I have witnessed, Im changing formats.
GC
OK, I can agree with all of you that 120Hz and 1920×1080/24p film can look fake. Point conceeded. All of you have hit on the issue. 120Hz is the realization of technology and digital finally reproducing exactly what used to be recorded analog. Meaning, films are most always shot at 24 frames per second meaning that they capture an image every 24 times per second. TV’s up untill recently reproduced these images at 60 frames per second (NTSC or PAL conventions…don’t really know which). The point is that in order to reproduce the 24 frames per second in a 60 frame window the company must repeat frames. Furthermore, Directors saw their film recorded in 24p, don’t you want to watch it in it? Let me explain 120Hz…60 divided by 24 does not equal an integer, a whole number, it instead equals 2.5. This half frame is impossible to display, obviously. The way around this that was devised long ago was to use something called 3:2 pull down which repeats frames at an interval of 2, 2, 3. The eliminates the extra frame. This processes however makes one image stay longer than the others and therefore during high motion or panning shots people tend to blur, an optical effect from your brain trying to understand why it is seeing one image too long. The result is blurring which hides imperfections, I will get to those, created by hollywood not “caring” about the HD viewers out there. The advent of 120Hz or 120 frames per second allows those frames to be displayed without pulldown meaning each frames gets five shots then the next gets five. Why the number five because 120 is divisible by five evenly. It is 120/5 = 24. The extra special idea behind 120 hz is that it not only displays 24 frames per second material accurately, IE DVD, BLU-RAY and the dead format HDDVD, it actually reproduces 60Hz evenly as well. So your broadcast shows don’t have to go through some conversion process. Their are a number of other frame rates as well such as 30 fps. which are also displayed accurately. 120/30=4. OK so 120Hz is explained accurately now. One more thing about the interpolation people have been speaking of. The only TV that is in the mainstream I know of that actually interpolates is the Samsung. Sony utilizes black frame insertion to create their 120Hz images. Sometimes the interpolation process does create errant pixels but they are not hugely noticeable. The only time I noticed this was on the original Samsungs that were out during Christmas, the 71f series and they did it only during a rock falling scene in Stealth.
On to the producers of films. Yes movies look fake and cheap SOMETIMES on BLU ray with 120Hz. This is not a flaw it is actually an amazing thing, you have beaten the film makers at their game. You are forcing them to up the ante and create more realistic motion pictures so you can be ever more immersed in pristine entertainment. This will not happen overnight people. It requires time, budgets and patience. Look at old SCIFI shows, no one complained that the graphics sucked….they gritted their teeth through it until computers caught up to todays standards where properly made graphics look amazingly real. People need to realize that just because sometimes you can ask for something and it is instantly possible doesn’t mean that everything is like that, research and time must be spent on these things.
BOTTOM LINE:
120Hz is an amazing technology that only replicated now what was technically possible 10 years ago. The directors saw their movie in 24P when they filmed it. Why shouldn’t you see exactly what they intended.
Furthermore, Directors and Producers of films will catch up to the new stringent standards of creating more realistic props, and blending CG with live action. Give it time.
For now if you want the best possible picture quality stick with 120Hz and LCD….If you can’t deal with the realism and want to continue to be fooled by movie tricks continue to buy 60Hz Tvs.
Thank god!! My wife and I thought we were the only ones who noticed this!!! We bought a samsung with the 120HZ feature and right away the first thing I thought was “man this looks like a soap opera!” luckily the feature can be turned off. What sucks is that at some points it makes the picture looking AMAZING!!!!!!!! but at other points you can tell that is just a guy wearing a vinyl costume. I hope they find a good balance between those two extemes in the near future.
120Hz is quite possibly the worst “feature” to have come along in awhile, in regards to feature films.
The first time I saw 120Hz refresh rate on the Bravia XBR4, I immediately sensed something was wrong. It looked as if the frame was pan and scanning, despite being a full widescreen image.
Bottomline, feature films are shot at 24 frames per second. They are pulled down to 29.97 for NTSC DVD’s. Some of the HD formats such as HD-DVD and Bluray are capable of playing at 23.98 (24 frames). Unless filmmakers start shooting projects at 60 fps (highly unlikely), I don’t see where 120Hz motion would ever be desirable for feature films. Perhaps for sports or video games, but absolutely not films.
It scares me to think of how many people will not know to turn off the 120Hz motion when watching a theatrical film. Let the mass confusion begin…
The effect you are seeing is interpolation, it is a computer calculated “frame” placed between actual filmed frames. On the new Samsung series, there are three settings of interpolation. High is over the top looking, and is the number one choice of retailers to display the technology. However, on low, the interpolation just barely smooths the edges, creating a stunning scene that provides a lifelike experience, while maintaining film quality. Next time you’re in one of these retailers, ask a salesman to turn the interpolation down to low, and you’ll see what I mean.
I hate to say it but I saw the same thing recently on a new Pioneer Kuro set playing the first scene from The Dark Knight.
Everything looked like PBS. I don’t know how else to explain it. It looked so real that it looked…real I suppose.
I will admit that some of the odd motion and pan & scan had a lot to do with the opening scenes being filmed largely for IMAX but it still had a ‘look’ to it that I did not like.
I hope someone in the industry is taking note.
Way late to this thread but I just went to Circuit City and saw Pirates 3 on a Samsung 50″ lcd. It was so comical! I came home and searched the web to see if it was just me. OMFG it was the clearest WORST thing ever. It looked like a bad high school play. If this is the future count me out. Why do people settle for this?
Late too but the problem here is with the movie not the TV. It’s Pirates of the Caribbean 3 – it IS comical.
Great to read the comments. I just bought a Panasonic 42″ Viera 1080p with PS3 blueray player and found that movies looked like Young and the Restless. I thought something was wrong with my setup so I changed the output of the PS3 to 720p and then 576p (which the TV accepts) but the horrible surreal video like picture remained. I changed as much settings on the TV and PS3 to try to get a more cinema experience – no luck.
I then got my old DVD player and hooked it up (576p) via composite cables and the movies looked the same – hand held video like – fantastic bright images but disconcerting and completely not cinema-like. So I deduced from this that it’s not the player.
It doesn’t matter what DVDs I play – they all look ridiculous – even arthouse films like Atonement and Waitress. I even checked out an old one – Galaxy Quest and I just couldn’t laugh – it was depressing.
However with broadcast TV the movies look just like the cinema. Perfect. Can anybody explain this? There doesn’t seem to be a setting on the TV to change the interpolation as some suggest the Samsung has. HELP!!!
The only reason someone should be in Best Buy is to actually see the product first hand… never purchase anything from there unless you like paying their 200%-300% markups – especially on accessories. If anyone that works there approaches you, run. In fact, you can discourage any contact by screaming “JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!” to the person who greets you at the front door. Actually, sometimes on big ticket items you can get a decent deal, but things like cables and adapters, etc… you’re better off purchasing these things at even the priciest of websites, which will most likely still beat Best Buy’s price by about 50% (other websites you can find the same items for 80% or better). And you’d probably get more accurate information about products by having a one-sided conversation with a brick wall rather than asking one of Best Buy’s associates. Well… now that I’ve got the Best Buy tangent out of the way… Yes… HD. Blu-ray. All a sham. Don’t waste your money. With the advent of streaming video and non-tangible media, and the fact that more people are integrating their computers into their entertainment systems, Blu-ray will be dead in about 5 years… kind of like how Hi-8 and Digital-8 video had its short run in the 90’s. Blockbuster video, Netflix, and all the rest that are heavily invested in DVD media and aren’t striving to break the DVD dependency barrier while praying that Blu-ray keeps them alive won’t make it to see the first quarterly report of the 2015 fiscal year. It’s not the quality… it’s the technology. Discs are on their way out in a hurry. By the year 2020, crystal storage will be mainstream as disc storage is today. Even now, you can store media on your flash drives, your ipod… even your phone. Why do you want to spend a boatload of money on a disc that can be easily damaged, and is only a little bit better than the current choice and gives you a frustrating viewing experience? Film is on its way out as well… more and more film makers are choosing to shoot HD rather than on film stock – the cost difference of HD tape opposed to film is staggering, and makes the post production workflow a breeze. So like it or not, HD is on its way, just not so much Blu-ray… unless they ditch the disc format and come out with something easier to manage… something that won’t damage so easily – anyhow, enough of this tangent… I’ve read some people say something about 120 fps. Whereas there are a few different frame rates out there for playback, the only practical application for 120 fps would be on a set shooting slow motion… not in any way for playback… unless you really like to watch everything 5 times slower than it was intended to be seen, and even then you would probably have a hard time getting your Blu-ray player to do it. The refresh rate of 120Hz is what they probably mean, but as far as DVD compression goes, they’re all encoded in MPEG2 format… which means that you’re not seeing the movie frame-per-frame as it was meant to be seen… you’re only seeing 1 full frame of data, then about 15 frames of only what changes until the next full frame of data. So in a shot where there’s someone talking, and the background doesn’t have any movement, then it just retains that data for the next frame, and records the changes to the character’s movements… which allows for such a nice picture without the need for excessive storage. A single layer DVD only holds about 4.2 GB (4.7 total, but any storage needs to allocate space for its file system) and a double-density DVD holds about 8.5 GB… a Blu-ray single density holds about 25GB of raw data, and a double-density holds about 50GB raw data. Whereas that sounds wonderful, it cannot be justified by the insane prices they charge. I could easily find a 250 GB external hard drive for just as much as a Blu-ray double density, without the need to invest hundreds of dollars to utilize it, plus an external is much more durable. Anyhow… back to the compression… if this interpolation does its guesswork, and uses what it has in order to assume what the next frame will look like, it will most likely make an ass out of u and me… and double up on frames, which can cheapen the look of an image (perfect example… all Hanna-Barbara cartoons – like The Flintstones – used to double up on their frames to speed up the animation process… 2-shot I think they called it… which may be why HD can also look almost ‘cartoony’). Also, HD has trouble with highlights and darks… the highlights blow out easily, and there is no true black in HD… yet (or in NTSC for that matter, but HD has a long way to go to even reach that) so that makes big problems for contrast. I’ll start investing in HD once the format stabilizes… in my personal opinion, once film is officially dead, and is only used by the hard-core independents, then HD video will be much more refined, and there will be tighter standards across the board, which will make this HD mess much easier to understand, and force Television manufacturers to adhere to these standards. And by that time I’m sure that storage capacity and processor speeds will be more than sufficient (crystal storage, we’re waiting!) to accommodate full-length feature films without the need for any compression… which will launch a brand new era of film-making altogether… and flush out the inferior formats. If you really stop to think about it, just in the last 30 years, home entertainment has been revolutionized dramatically – going from OnTV in the late 70’s (yes, it was a big black box with an antenna and two knobs and you could see real movies at home on your own TV!) to where you can press a button on your remote and download your choice of film from your cable company. Just imagine what the next 5 years will bring us. Change is coming… it will wipe the slate clean… wait a few more years for HD to clean up its act and you’ll thank me and laugh at your friends that spent a fortune on a format that died before it had the chance to impress anyone.
Glad to hear, I’m not losing my mind. The lighting especially looks fake. For me, the best way I can describe it is videotape. It looks like videotape instead of film. I’m also glad to hear it can be turned off.
I’m sure glad I found this article and post. We just bought an LG 47″ 1080p 120hz LCD TV (Model 47LG70 I think). The last few nights my Wife and I have have watched a few of the primetime shows and she had noticed the same thing. She kept complaining that the show looked fake or like a soap opera. I thought that since it was a new season that they might be trying something different. But when I turned on our old TV and watched the same show, it was evident that it was the new TV. The detail is so good that it’s like being on the set of the show and watching it through a glass. To me, it even appears to be slightly 3 demensional. I even turned off the 120 hz refresh rate to see if that had an effect and there was no difference. It has to just be that fact that it’s full 1080 HD. It sure is nice for live sporting events. Look’s awesome! It’s going to be a real challenge for movie directors to improve their props so they appear real on a TV with such fine detail.
I have the same complaint. While watching Hancock @1080p @120hz, I thought I was watching the behind the scenes part of the movie. The video looks as if it were recorded using a home camcorder, the lighting, color, etc. was all off and the super smooth motion just made things look fake. Then to top it all off, the clarity of the video made special effects and props look fake. An example was the scene were hancock throws the whale out to sea, you can clearly tell what was record and what was generated by computer and see the clear line of what was overlayed on top of the real video.
YES.
I just bought a 47″ LG 120hz LCD.
And HD shows look TOO real.
What a funny thing!
I was watching Heroes last night, and the show no longer had the ‘cinema’ quality – but rather a reality show style to it – as if the was no lens.
Remarkable.
I adjust the brightness and contrast and it really improved things.
Interesting topic. I see there are those on both sides of the fence on the validity of tranforming films shot at 24fps to something more.
I for one tend to see film as art, maybe because I studied, and practiced the form, but regardless I see it as something that’s simply more than entertainment.
And with that said, I would place film on the same spectrum as other arcs of art such as painting, poetry, literature, music, so and so forth.
With all art forms, there is the issue of maintaining true to original form as created by the artist. Regardless of whether new technology will allow for a more advanced version of the original.
In this sense, I tend to see DNM and all technology related to frame alteration as something that strives to change the original form.
By changing a film that was shot at 24fps, regardless of whether or not the director would have preferred otherwise, is in essense altering the original form. It would be like adding extra brush strokes to Mona Lisa, or rewriting a Robert Frost poem, or re-composing a Mozart piece. At the end of the day I think just because we can do something does not mean that it is for the better.
I have seen many on this forum argue that the human can see far beyond 24fps and thus we have an obligation to match the films shot to our visual reality. In this arguement I tend to disagree, because art although inspired by life is rarely ever a duplicate of life itself. If matching the human visuals senses becomes the ultimate modo in art then photography would have replaced painting ages ago. As painting is far less realistic than photography, and thus if seeking reality is what we want with art then why bother painting at all.
There also seems to be people who argue that directors never wanted to shoot films at 24fps and that motion blur in itself is something that became a norm not out of choice but rather necessity because after all 24 frames of films is cheaper that 60 or 120. I tend to disagree with this view as well, because I have noticed that DNM in general not only makes films look digital but also removes intentional motion blur in scenes that were shot at lower frames and then step-printed for artistic effect. There are many filmmakers who continue to use film for motion blur and film grain, one which is Asian film maker Wong Kar Wai, whose artistic usage of low frame rate step-printing technique has made his films famous world wide. By removing motion blur via DNM you are in essence stripping away an cinematic technique that directors such as Wong Kar Wai (Ashes of Time Redux – step-printing), Ridley Scott (Gladiator – step-printing) and Steven Spielberg (Saving Private Ryan – Step-printing) have opted to use on a conscious level.
I think this brings us back to question of “Should we do it, just because we can?” question. As most people would agree that adding extra brush strokes the Mona Lisa or re-writing Mozart’s Requiem would be a travesty, but isn’t altering the visuals on a filmmaker’s work the same thing?
In the end I think there are things that require changing, but to alter art simply because we can is not something that can really be justifiably defended on any level.
As one memeber mentioned before, when a director shoots a movie at 100 fps then I will watch at 100fps. Until then frame rates should really be left the way they are, if you are desperate to view something without motion blur at 120fps or higher, all you need is to look out your window and enjoy life.
In the end I feel that art is something that we should not tamper with just because the technology is here. I’m sure one day filmmakers will shoot films on 4k Cameras that run at 120fps default, and when that day comes I will be glad to watch it on my 4k 120hz TV without the use of DNM.
Sorry Just to clarify the above post was a long winded answer that I wrote on another forum in regards to a question that was veery similar to this. Some of the answer may not fit perfectly with this topic. But it is an honest answer from someone who works in the bus,
You can turn the 120Hz feature off if you don’t like it.
It might look weird right now, but down the road there maybe movies or shows that are specially designed for 120Hz.
Boy – this is the truth.
On Tuesday November 18th our RCA projection HD tv died. I had been looking to replace it anyway – and had been looking around. I settled on buying at Sams Club.
It fell between a Sony 46 inch 1080p LCD 60hz, a 47 inch JVC and 47 inch Philips 120 hz.
The isle with the Sony was playing movies as demo. The isle with the other two was playing fancy graphics and clips from cooking shows. I settled at the midway point and brought home the Philips 120hz.
The wife and I watched Tropic Thunder that night on Blu-Ray. It had came out that day and I bought it at the same time.
The TV ruined the film. Looked like a mexican soap opera. Put in the Indy film on Blu-Ray – just as bad. Reduced everything to a very very sharp VIDEO look. Also the philips autosensing feature occasionally bounced it into a full screen then back to wide screen mode. The high-lights were very blown out – and oranges and greens seemed to dominate the picture.
Then I found this site. I was not the only one disappointed. I could not find a way on the Philips to turn the 120hz off. Some say its not the 120hz causing this – I dunno – but 60hz models look fine.
I opted to remove the tv from the stand last night, re-box it and take it back to Sams. I really didn’t look at the others again – just went and got the Sony 46 incher that I almost bought to start out with. $100 cheaper and 60hz.
On older movies on blu-ray (Blade Runner, Commando) there are some compression issues on this Sony from the halfway point of the screen down on occasion. 120hz didn’t do that – but again the picture looked fake. Newer shot films on Blu-Ray (Ironman, Tropic Thunder) do not show the dropouts. Can’t explain that one.
Anyway – 120hz and 1080p has definately proved there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
I agree, It’s so good its bad!
I have a bad feeling that this will become a major issue and years from now we will need to buy new TV technology which corrects this issue.
That being said I watch mostly sports and it is Awesome!!
So I will put up with fake looking movies for the payoff you get with sports.
Titanic effect is what it has been coined. Titanic was aired in HD on HBO and people with there 120hz LCDs saw what a huge joke this movie was like this. It is the hardest thing to explain to someone who hasn’t seen it but the truth is it exists and it made the most grossing movie of all time look like a broadway play with bad acting. I never thought being behind the scenes would be such a bad thing but if I have to continue to watch movies t is way I might just go back to Standard Definition. TITANIC EFFECT is underway and it might rip apart american cinema.
TITANIC EFFECT definition = The worst accidents often occur in systems that are thought to be completely safe. Making the picture nearly perfect seems to be pretty safe to me but it turns out that it ruins movies, such as Titanic. The TITANIC EFFECT needs to be witnessed to be understood. After watching Titanic on a 120hz LCD I can understand why people started calling it that and the fact that the definition of it still makes sense, seems to me like it must be destiny.
The “Titanic Effect” seems extremely fitting. I recently saw The Titanic on my new lcd 120 hz tv, and I no longer like this movie. It is amazing how horrible The Titanic actually looked.
After reading up on this, I have found that I can turn the TV back to 60 hz and remove the dreadful TITANIC EFFECT. I was so glad my tv had this setting. I am so annoyed by the “titanic effect” that I would have had to take my TV back if there wasn’t a way to get rid of the “titanic effect.”
My advice to everyone who suffers from the horrid “Titanic Effect”: Check the settings on your tv to see if you can switch back to 60 hz because there just may be hope.
I’m Really glad I found this thread. I just bought a Samsung 120Hz LN40a650. Here is the Kicker. I love the picture quality and have no problems with anything looking fake but im actually noticing quite a bit of motion blur(Dont know if im using the right term). From what I understand the TV always operates at 120Hz but the motion plus technology witch interpolates an estimated frame between broadcasted frames can be either turned of or scaled down. Other than PS3 things look smoother with it turned on but I still see lag when someone moves there arm or head quickly and shakey camera work gives me slight vertigo. This is killing me. I paid a premium to avoid this issue and here it is. My real question with 120hz and 60Hz is all my outputs are at 60Hz… Verizon fios HD and PS3…. My PS3 looks great while playing games… there is still a little lag but its bearable and a worthwile trade off for such a beautifull and vibrant image. Is the PS3(while playing blu-ray) and my Fios set top box performing 3:2 pulldown before the output gets to my TV or am I overlooking some setting. Is anyone else experiencing this issue with the same series of TVs… I’m finding I love hate this TV and have only 2 weeks left on the retun period. Please help
Just turn off the automotion plus setting…things will still be in 120hz which refers to frame rate and pulldown rate…However your movies will look like movies and not like your are watching the movie being filmed on set…I too saw pirates of the caribbean on an HD channel and I literally laughed my ass off…I was pretty upset that my new Samsung LN52 A850 showed every imperfection of the movie and was very soap opera like…Go into the menu click mode, scroll to picture options select Automotion Plus and turn it to low or off if watching a movie…I prefer off, and only amp the level of this setting up if watching sports or Discovery HD…I hope that this helps…
Just turn off the automotion plus setting…things will still be in 120hz which refers to frame rate and pulldown rate…However your movies will look like movies and not like your are watching the movie being filmed on set…I too saw pirates of the caribbean on an HD channel and I literally laughed my butt off…I was pretty upset that my new Samsung LN52 A850 showed every imperfection of the movie and was very soap opera like…Go into the menu click mode, scroll to picture options select Automotion Plus and turn it to low or off if watching a movie…I prefer off, and only amp the level of this setting up if watching sports or Discovery HD…I hope that this helps…
Thanks Josh. I already played with just about every setting possible. I’m realizing that movies do look much better with autio motion set to low or off most of the time. I think I just expected more from True HD and after letting everything soak in for a while its becomeing a bit infectious I now notice the same thing on my EDTV CRT wide screen that ive since moved to my bedroom. I never noticed it before but seeing such a large high def picture so many more of the imperfections with film and broadcast are right in your face. I hope the industry sees this problem and starts releasing better content. I think im going to rearange my Living room so my LCD is on the far side of the room as oposed to the wide side. Pretty happy with my purchase. SD media looks pretty good and the PS3 does a great job upconverting Standard DVDs… Blu-ray is still tops tho. Also in my quest for information i found a bunch of threads pertaining to Verizon Fios and this series of TV powering off randomly…. Haven’t had any issues so if your haveing this problem update your firmware. Dont let my previous post disuade you from buying a Samsung its pretty sweet. Still love to know if any body has good results with particular settings or knows how to enter the “Pro Setup Mode” Saw a post about it hitting buttons in succesion but havent goten it to work yet. Thanks again Josh.
I noticed that too, thus the reason I googled and got this, I was wondering why the movies looked fake. Our TV is 120 HZ and also 1080. And you can tell the backdrops from the actual places they’re at. I did not like it at all. It looked like I took a video camera and tried to film something. At first I thought it was the movie, but then watched another, it was wierd.
The fakeness (or realness depending on how you look at it) you are referring to is not inherent of 1080p or even 120hz technology, it has to do with the dejudder or smoothing features on HDTVs. An HDTV with smoothing turned on interpolates frames on every screen refresh and will produce the “soap opera” look you are talking about. Turning it off will have the TV just show 5 frames repeated (since 120/24 = 5), and will give you the movie feel. Excellent article about it here: http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6792632-1.html
Very informative post. Thank you all for sharing what I have been experiencing with my new 120 HZ LCD. I have played with the settings by turning off the 120 HZ feature and toning down the brightness and contrast, seems to have made some beneficial deference.
I have had this set for 4 days now and debating if i can live with it? Why did i spend more money for a 120 HZ to watch TV shows and movies that are surreal? Is the enjoyment of TV not about been engulfed in the unbelievable, that is why i go the the movie theater. Would it not make sense to try and get the same effect at home.
My question, is this Titanic effect only on LCD’s running at 120 HZ? Plasma runs at 480 HZ and no one in this thread mentioned the same problem with plasma? Since i still have time to return my set, can anyone tell me if Plasma has the same issue?
Thanks
Wow, what a peace of mind with this blog, I can’t appreciate this enough.
Here’s my story, I bought new Samsung LN46A650, 1080p 120Hz last saturday and from the time I bought I have been trying to find what the problem was with the movies that I was watching. I had the 120Hz on the tv at the medium level and everything looked exactly as described above (fake, soap opra, watching it like behind the scenes). I had no idea what was going on, I rented several dvds, try HD movies on the cable etc.. none of them satisfied me. I went to the ElectronicExpo (the store where I bought the tv) and tried to explain them and you know what they told me ..”its all my intution.. everything is great”… that was the dumbest explanation I ever heard.. I even played on of my DVD’s in the store on a 120Hz LG TV and it looked same.. I spent several restless hours to figure out if there was any problem with the TV, debating to return this TV.
I finally hit this blog and understood the technology behind 120Hz (thanks a ton for all the contributers) and switched off the 120Hz feature on the TV and now all my movies look great !! I really feel bad that there is not much information out there about this, people need to be educated and the sales people in the TV store are the most are the worst misleading us most of the time.
THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE WITH BLOGS
Is the 120hz movie effect what I would consider the video looking like a bad 3D movie? I was watching an episode of NCIS on a new samsung touch of red 46″ 120Hz LCD. the characters looked like they were floating in front of the background. Same effect happened when we switched to Silence of the Lambs on another FIOS channel.
I don’t experience this on my 30″ CRT HDTVs but am looking to go to an LCD soon.
Yeah I know exactly what you’re talking about. It’s the 120hz… it’s like comparing a 30fps game to a 70fps… the only word to describe it is ‘surreality’. You can turn off the 120hz function on most sets I believe. I’m seeing a lot of people talking bad about LCD tech in general in these remarks- and I really have to say that LCD and Plasma tech has surpassed CRTs long ago, I mean sure I’ve seen some really high-end CRTs, but they were generally 24″ or less pc monitors. The contrast ratio (true, not dynamic) is a big thing as well, but hopefully local dimming will solve that soon.
When I got home that day, however, I couldn’t think of the right words either… simply put, it ruined the experience.
Noticed the same thing on a Sony XBR4, watching “Spider Man 3” in the store. My wife and I originally thought we were watching some kind of “making of” documentary, rather than the actual movie.
I think the “3-D” effect came from the TV’s circuitry deciding what parts of the picture needed to be re-drawn/refreshed and which parts didn’t, because anything that was moving (objects/actors) seemed to “float” in front of the static background.
I can’t imagine not being able to turn it off – it was simply that distracting.
You are complaining now but just wait until next year when its 240hz or maybe even 480hz. These people have problems because they spend all of this money without doing research and understanding the technology behind it. You think the picture looks too real….. And how is that a problem. If you ask me it turns the picture into a 3d view of the set. The clarity is unreal and if you do not like it then stay in 1999 because its only going to get better.
Travis, what is being debated here is known to many as ‘the soap opera effect’. It is the combined effect HD and 120hz has on movies and is caused, I gather, by simulating the effect of having more fps than ‘normal’ movies. But the result is that even a film like Lord of The Rings ends up looking like a soap opera set. Props look unrealistic, actions look unconvincing, acting looks hammy.
The beauty of Panavision disappears altogether and it’s like we’re watching a scene from the ‘extras’ disc about how they made the film!
If by “it’s only going to get better” you mean it’s only going to become even more like this, I for one will prefer my movies 1999-style any day!
A staggering example of the folly of introducing a new fad to the masses simply because the technology exists to do so.
Er, hang on, I’m not suggesting LOTR was filmed in Panavision. I’m just using that as an example of how fabulous cinematography is converted to wedding video-vision…
LOL at all the naysayers.
When LaserDisc came out and as a teenager, I convinced my dad to buy a player, we were all shocked at how “fake” movies looked. We were all so accustomed to the low resolution VHS versions of movies that this new fangled 480i of LaserDisc just “ruined the movie experience”
Relax. Don’t be a grumpy old man, clinging to yesterday’s technology. Can you imagine if we were still using VHS resolution of 240i just to preserve the “movie look”?
What’s making movies look bad on new HD TV’s is not their 1080p resolution, but the 120hz power. Like what a lot of people have said, it turns movies into “soap opera” quality. With the 120hz TV’s, movies lose their cinematic, and almost magic, feel that they are supposed to have. Sure, 120hz TV’s are great for watching sports and other non cinematic features, but they are not cut out for movies. Movies are filmed at a certain frame rate, which is 24 frames per second. This frame rate gives movies the “film” look, the cinematic feel. What 120hz TV’s do is play each frame twice, really fast, or produces an interpolated frame in between two frames, which creates more natural motion. The more frames per second, the cleaner the motion you will get. If you play video games, compare the look of Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4. Halo 3 runs at about 30 frames per second, whereas Call of Duty 4 runs at 60 frames per second, which is why it looks more like real life compared to Halo’s cinematic feel. If you don’t play video games, compare a soap opera to a motion picture on a regular TV. Luckily, TV’s with the 120hz option allow you to turn it off. In my opinion, I don’t think the 120hz option is necessary. Although it might be nice looking for some things, overall I would leave it off.
My boyfriend and I also just bought the Samsung LN46A650, 1080p 120Hz 52″ from Sears and was watching a movie on it for the first time last night and i honestly was sooo distracted i couldn’t even watch Wedding Crashers which is one of my favorite movies. I really thought it was me, but even watching channel 5 HD channel it just looked so fake like i can’t describe it. It kind of worry’s me though but im gonna see if it has the 120hz option so i can turn it off. I f this doesn’t work i don’t know what to do that’s how much it distracts me and we also bought the PS3 so we could play blu-ray not sure if it was the best decision as of some above said blu-ray would phase out in the next years coming. I guess it will look awesome for sports and video games but i dont really even do either. So when it comes down to it it is the 120 hz?? Sounds so from most above. If there is any other suggestions that could be summed up into simple words that’d be great other wise im stuck with this because i already through the box away and everything, and i guess im stuck in the past technology but i just like to be able to watch a movie and for it to look like an actual movie not a play. Thanks!
I just bought the new Samsung 40′ 630 (with 1080 and 120hz) and FREAKED out when my wife and I got it home and popped in harry potter blu ray… and it looked like daytime tv!!! It was freakish, just as you all described, the makeup looked cheap, the special effects looked fake, and everything looked as though you were on set… FAKE!
Fortunately, the samsung gives you the option to turn off the 120hz interpolating, and that did the trick. On another note, I watched a new release blu ray, and it did just fine with the interpolating, incredible depth and richness, but still hyper-real looking.
For older movies/movies with really heavy makeup and closeups, turn off the interpolating… Cool trick to show the friends though….
People, you are confusing two different things. it is not the 120hz refresh rate that is causing the problem. it is the Motionflow (sony) / or AMP (samsung) mode in your television’s menu system that enables and disable the motion smoothness you are referring to. You turn it on for sports and video games; you turn it off for watching anything else. 120HZ is your friend! 🙂
When you turn on motion flow, it use’s the 120hz tech. But yes, its the motion flow setting that is causeing this effect, and can be turned off on every tv that sells with the option.
so settle down people, settle down.
Wow… I am chiming in extremely late but I would like to state that it looks fake because it is fake. Its not real. It is actually people on a set with fabricated stones and fake wood. Its computer drafts on a blue/green screen with actors pretending like they are really there. It is a soap opera. Technology just caught up with hollywoods little trick but eventually your brain will make it all ok again. You’ll get used to the fake sets and the CGI animal/monster/backgrounds and the story will help convince your brain that your eyes are lying to you and the thought of a huge tital wave or giant robots invading the planet will seem completely believable again… or you could just turn of the 120hz feature in the TV.
I noticed the same thing, when I hooked up my mom-in-laws Blu-ray. At 1080P + 120Hz : King Kong looked like poop. When you saw the shots of the ape in the jungle, it was ok, but then when you saw the actors in action: it was like some high school paid actors to put on a show for parents. Don’t get me wrong, I like my x-box 360 at 1080P + 120Hz = sweetness factor x3. Then again, that is apples to oranges, in a fish barrel. I have a Samsung 40′ that has just 60Hz & thankfully, I’ve had no problems with a bad picture. I just think when I go to buy a new TV for my Blu-Ray: I will have to make sure I can turn the 120Hz off !!! 😛
Your problem is the TV is lcd. Go watch bluray on a plasma, the picture q is 100 times crisper and looks unbeleivable than lcd. Any true videoaphile will chose plasma over lcd. I paid 1100 for a 50″ panny plasma that blows away any sharp or sony lcd.
I just bought a Sony V series Bravia 52″ LCD 1080 120hz. I experienced this fake looking phenomenon when watching spiderman on HBO through my dish network provider. It looked horrible…until I turned it to Cinema mode. In Vivid mode I could tell what was real and what was a green screen. Once I switched the mode i was exposed to the best picture I have ever witnessed. Just my 2 cents. Thanks
I like HD. I own both HD DVD and Blu-ray. I have a Toshiba 50″ 1080p 120hz tv and an Old 37″ Westinghouse 1080i. I have seen transformers and Pirates of the Caribbean in stores. Although is looks really clear I didn’t like it, it looked like crap. Motion seems off and looks like hand held camera. Both My TV’s are calibrated and My Blu-ray HD DVD are set-up for 24hz and all the special features on my 1080p tv are off. I can say that it looks a lot better than at the stores. But, I like how HD DVD and Blu-ray look on my 1080i TV. The colors are not saturated and look more like film due to the low contrast ratio. Blacks and whites look solid with HDMI cables. even though its 1080i, every movie looks like 1080p because of the TV size.
Plasma tv : I agree with you. plasma TVs are better quality than LCD. No argument there. I want one but I am afraid of burn in issues but i heard they are better at that now. When I saw 1080p HD DVD on a plasma 2 years ago. I was blown away. But CRT has better picture quality than plasma but are too big and I think they became obsolete before 1080p came out.
I honestly think that everything everybody on here says is bullshit and invalid, including what I say. Almost everything here is opinion and not fact.
Again, I love HD
Oh and I have seen Transformers and Pirates in Theaters, It didn’t look that way
Samsung LNB750 HDTV
Compared to the 22 year old RCA 27″ CRT it replaced, of course it is better. With the cable plugged in the picture is great. It took several days to learn the convention of the menu, but once learned and the contrast and colors adjusted for the room it is in, the picture is clear and easy on the eyes. In fact, the picture is so good the way it is, I do not plan to call the cable company to upgrade to HDTV for another bundle of dollars.
The B750 has many, many options and things I will never use, but the 150,000:1 contrast ratio was more important to me, which the B750 has over the A650. The $[…] Samsung instant rebate put me over the fence to buy now during the tough economic times. The TV’s speakers are not very good, and they lack bass. I use an outboard amplifier with big Pioneer CS-911’s with six speakers including a 15″ speaker in each box.
This is probably not the technical review you expect, but even after two years of HDTV homework, I find I know very little about the subject. I just like the picture improvement I am getting on a fairly large screen.
Just stumbled upon this blog. Highly agree with those that the processing the TV manufacturers have added on to 120hz sets has absolutely killed the way movies “should” look. You saw the movie in the theaters being run at 24fps. Your eyes know better. I played with the settings for a good hour on Sony, Samsung, and LG brands. I had my brother with me and he agreed with me on all points that it makes it extremely fake looking
Simple answer – turn OFF any “motion” setting when watching regular tv (non-sports) and for movies. Turn it ON when watching sports and for video games. Now THAT is where it is incredible. The only reason why I would buy a 120hz set – live HD sports. Mmmm….
Just got a new 55″ LG 1080P 120hertz bad boy to replace my 50″ Samsung 1080i DLP piece of crap (Only 4 years old, bulb went out 2 times, color wheel 1 time, paid $2400 back in the day).
Anyway, just like everyone one else got the soap opera / bad porn look on my ATT Uverse high def / Blue Ray movies.
Man, so lucky to find this blog. Went to the 120hertz and true motion settings and turned them off.
Got the picture looking way better. Best thing to do is tweak all your color settings until you find one that looks clean yet elliminates the PBS look. I’m pretty sure it’s the 120 hertz setting that does it. I also turned the black down and contrast.
Good luck..
Yes I totall agree. I’m an account executive for a computer component wholesaler and I also wholesale LCD HDTVs. So I’m around this stuff every single day and I look at these “electronics” far differently than a regular consumer. But the other day I had one of the LG LCD HDTV 120hz,1080p Tvs out and it had Gladiator playing on bluray and yes it does look fake. Its so crisp and clear that it looks fake. Totally ruins the “cinema” experience. It looked as if I was really there watching actors act, not watching gladiators battle. Looked like I was watching Russel Crowe act out a roll instead of watching characters in a story. Its a weird experience. My TV at home and is a 47″ 1080p 60hz TV and everything looks great. In my opinion, the flaws of the older technology are not a bad thing, they keep movies cinema like as if you’re observing others peoples lives in a story. When you watch them in 1080p, 120hz it gets so life like that its fake and feels as if you’re watching a play of some sort in an auditorium.
I searched on “soap opera look hd” and to my surprise stumbled upon this post. I just saw The Hulk (newest version) at Sam’s running on the new Samsung. At first I thought it was a “behind the scenes” look into how they made the film, specifically the scene where Ed Norton lays down on the table for his buddy to inject him with something. When I realized it was the actual movie, I was like WTF?? this is all wrong!
so i came home and did a search and can see this is a universal problem. This thread started over a year and a half ago and the industry hasn’t caught on.. odd
btw, what would happen if you *did* watch a soap opera with these new TVs? Would the images cancel each other out? 😉
Ha ha, nice.
Good Job & Thank You Share This….
I have the new walmart version of transformers 2 and could not figure out what was going on at 1st. But later I found the aspect ratio would chang back and forth. In a Dark room you can spot this real qucik as the light level jumps up and down in the room with the change of aspect ratio.
Yes, just turn 120Hz off and movie looks “normal” again. I love my 46″ Samsung TV!
Thank God that other people feel this way about HD movies. It ruins them. Too real.
This has been the most helpful thread on the net> I have a Epson EH TW 5000 projector and are having the same problem with movies looking like soap operas. After reading this thread I turned off the frame interpolation on the projector and the movies look like they should still sharp but real cinema feel. I tried animated movies and found they need the interpolation turned on as well as sports in HD and playstation games
Thanks for everyone on this board. I too was wondering what was going on. Just purchased a new 55″ Samsung LCD w/ new Sony Blue Ray – the movies looked fake and unwatchable. It was bugging the heck out of me. I changed the TV settings, on the DVD input, to turn the the 120HZ auto motion to off….Much better – the movies still like very high quality and I don’t feel as if I am on the set with them.
For some reason though, I have 52″ Sony XBR5 LCD w/ a PS3 in my “MAN ROOM” and have not noticed the difference. Wondering if the new SAMSUNG is much newer technology, but they are both 120HZ TV’s…
Thanks again and Cheers!
I noticed this a while back on early phillips lcd – the soap opera/fake effect.
I went to Comet (a UK electronics store) yesterday to try out the samsung UE40B7020 – (40″100Hz LED lit LCD) and was disappointed to see this effect again! I was watching Bourne Identity on an upscaled DVD.
I don’t think any of this effect is the refresh rate, be it 120Hz or whatever. Nor do I think its to do with the resolution. IMO it’s a lighting / contrast issue, but I don’t know for sure . I tinkered with the Samsung’s settings a bit, but it still looked fake.
I then tried the same DVD on a Panasonic TX-P42G15 (42″ 600Hz Plasma) It looked great – as I remember it from the movies, fake soap opera effect all gone!
Perhaps it could be down to the settings – maybe the samsung could be made to look natural. I’d set my heart on the Samsung but there’s no way I’d have it unless I was convinced that it could be made to look “real”.
LG55 120 owner’s advice may be of use. But if anyone has definately managed to completely rectify this phenomenon by tweaking the settings, I’d love to hear how!
I was searching for photography tutorials when I found your site. Excellent post. Thank You.
This ‘fake’ movie look you’re all referring to has nothing to do with 120hz, 1080p, contrast, etc. etc.
It looks fake, because some 120hz TV’s have this shitty ‘motion smoothing technology’ settings inside them. Basically, it’s analyzing each of the 24/sec frames from a film, and generating new frames in between, to fill in new frames for each of the 120/sec refreshes. All in the interest of looking ‘smooth’ and reducing motion blur.
This works counter to a huge aspect of how movies are filmed – frame rate, shutter speed, shutter angle.
Just turn off the motion smoothing, and it will look great. Simple. Every 120hz TV will allow you to.
Hello friends, what would be the ideal configuration for a LG32LH70YR, to correct this effect desagrabable, and to could be made to look natural the movies. Thank you.
There’s a possibility that this effect is the refresh rate.
The bigger possibility is that you’re watching things filmed at 24fps. Then they use 2:3 pulldown to get to 60hz. Every other frame is then “interpolated” using an algorithm that makes everything less detailed and tries to eliminate blur, but does a shitty job of it, producing 120 frames each second. Then these are combined back to display on a 60hz panel – on expensive sets it’s an IPS panel with good viewing angles that is not physically capable of 120hz. After all this, the LED backlight flickers on and off at 120hz – kind of like the worst CRTs did. When pressed, manufacturers claim “There’s not enough bandwidth in HDMI to display 120hz”.
This is not judder. 120hz was supposed to solve judder. It did. 5:5 pulldown can and does work. Perfectly. But the monitors you’re watching in the Circuit City are not 120hz. They are pretty clearly fraudulent false advertising, and the actual quality of the products has suffered. 3-D shutter glasses will work fine with true 120hz displays, but not with these boxes of shame.
SiC,
It isn’t the lighting or contrast, although callibrating those shouldn’t make it worse. It’s the refresh rate, I promise. My roommate and I had the same issues today with our brand new TV. I read the reccommendations here, turned off the “Smooth Motion” feature (what Vizio calls the 240hz refresh rate smoothing), and everything was groovy.
Train, you’re right!
I bought a 240 hz Visio HDTV (42″) and hate what it does to movies! Even old classics from the 30s look like soap operas and you can even see gaffers tape and dirt on the set floors! Furthermore, the makeup was directed for the technology of the day, and now everyone looks garish and awefull.
The new effect removes the silver “luster” of the old film process
The only benefit to the look is that the actors seem more contemporary and you get a sense of what they really looked like – stray hairs and everything – it’s as if the 1930s film was shot last week on a new HD camera but with flimsy period set pieces. It’s interesting to see how they created the sets.
But other than that I hade it! I’m looking now to see if I can turn the 240HZ off on the VISIO. Anyone know how to do it?
good for my choice thanks.
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I had the same problem. Going through the settings on my 52″ Phillips I found a setting called Digital motion. Turning this setting off completely fixed the issue. No more soap opera effect!
I had the exact same experience at Best Buy. Xmen 3 looked horrible.
Okay – after reading this I feel a little lame for not figuring it out first. I bought the new Samsung LN40C630 because it was 120Hz, 1080P, and 40″ at $809 plus tax. Sweet deal for sure. And being as cheap as I am, I don’t have a BlueRay so I can’t comment on that, but we watch OTA tv (free, the way it should be) and when watching CSI Miami, I go that effect. It looked like video for sure. It also looked like the original Star Trek series, when they beamed down to a planet that was invariably littered with huge foam boulders. After playing with it for a few days, I took the tv back to Fry’s, where they have a good return policy. I had a 40″ plasma in the othe room that I never watched, so I moved it to the new location, moved the little tv back, and am living with slightly older technology that makes me much happier.
I put the Samsung plasma on the same station as the Samsung LCD, and the old plasma blew it away in every way. Sadly, it’s a brightly lit room but I’m fine with the reflections. With little kids and working parents, there’s only an hour to watch tv per night, and I’m washing dishes while I do it.
The thing is… if you have to switch between one and other for sports/animation/video/CSIMiami etc to any other type of viewing, shouldn’t it be a one-button experience on the remote.
Try explaining to my wife that she has to press 12 keyclicks to have the picture be not unwatchable. That is a facial expression I don’t want to see, if you know what I mean. So now I have my $875 (including tax) burning a hole in my pocket. That’s a much better problem to have.
Hey, you have a great blog here! I’m definitely going to bookmark you! Thank you for your info.And this is **Vizio HDTVs** site/blog. It pretty much covers ###Vizio HDTVs## related stuff.
Just watched Avatar on BluRay and Samsung LED LCD TV. Wow at first (along with all my co-workers) but soon was transported back 35 years (age 10) to the day I missed school because of being sick. When Days of Our Lives came on the tube I immediately didn’t like the soap opera look and feel. That’s what BluRay looks like to me. I like a movie that you get immersed in not distracted by the attempt to make everything “super sharp” and high res. A good story, action, or both beat out high res. any day. For example 70mm IMax is great when you are looking out the window of the Space Shuttle, sky diving, riding a top a logging truck in the mountains close to the edge. But talking heads and human interaction is distracting. Almost like being to close (personal space?).
When CD first came out they were missing something that vinyl had. It’s still missing. I hope the same doesn’t happen to movies! Thank you for this forum.
I just got the 47inch LG 1080p 120hz and the fisrt movie we watched hooked up through the PS2 -looked like a soap opera, then we turned the normal Direct TV on a movie channel and the same feeling, I was looking but we can not turn that 120hz down.
I want to take it back, would a plasma be better or a LED?
I am very happy to have a new larger HDTV but not real happy with what I am “seeing”
I know that sports will look great, but what about the movies, and I dont know if I want to even try to see what my kids say when they watch a movie…. -help-
I can take it back, but then what should I get? -does this happen on plasma’s or LED’s?
I saw a vizeo with 240hz :LED/LCD -what is that all about -would that make this even worse??
KAM
To Keith: The answer is simple – do you see ANYONE complaining about plasma TVs?
For the price of your LG 47″ 120hz lcd tv a 600hz 46″ plasma tv and enjoy it, or spend a few dollars more and get a 50″. Either way, you won’t have the problems of either the 120hz or the LCD inferior picture quality at different viewing angles.